Mubarak insists Palestinian, Iraqi solutions linked

The following are excerpts from a Washington Times interview yesterday with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in Houston:

Question: Mr. President, you had been looking for a commitment from President Bush at your meeting [Monday] that the proposed Israeli pullout from the Gaza Strip would be seen in the context of the “road map” peace plan. You received that commitment?

Answer: I told him that the withdrawal from Gaza should be coordinated with the Palestinians, should be in consultation with the Palestinians, for one single reason: so they can prepare themselves to have the power to control Gaza after that. … Otherwise, it would be a big mistake. To just withdraw and leave everything would be very complicated.

Q: What role will Egypt play in Gaza if such a withdrawal takes place?

A: In Gaza, we are ready just to train the people, to give them instructions in how to work as police for the security, and to bring them to Egypt and train them — we know them very well — and to coordinate with them in how they can work in maintaining security against terror.

Q: Did President Bush also ask you to maintain security along the border, to prevent weapons from being smuggled into Gaza?

A: Look, my friend, this issue I am hearing it for years and years. We are making very strict efforts, but sometimes, on any border between any countries, smuggling can take place. … We are doing the maximum effort. We are not sending arms to any country. We don’t want any more escalation.

Q: [Israeli] Prime Minister [Ariel] Sharon announced yesterday that he wants to keep five of the largest settlements in the West Bank. How will this be received in the region?

A: If we are looking for peace and stability between both sides, we have to consult on each step toward withdrawal. To keep some settlements without the acceptance of the Palestinians — this will never happen. Let us be realistic: If you want peace, if you want to live together in harmony, we have to consult with each other.

I was preparing a meeting between Sharon and the prime minister of Palestine [Ahmed Qureia]. It was supposed to be held on the 16th of last month. I made tremendous efforts to contact Sharon and the Palestinians. Both agreed and the representatives from both sides met two times. Both of them said, “We had a very positive meeting.” I was encouraged by that. …

But there are elements on both sides that don’t want peace to prevail. [An Israeli military operation at Ashdoud in the West Bank] canceled the whole meeting. It could happen again. But we have to insist on the meeting.

Q: Did Sharon cancel the meeting?

A: Sharon canceled the meeting. We’ll try again.

Q: Did President Bush ask you for any particular help in Iraq?

A: We are willing to help the United States as far as we can, all that’s possible that we can do. I am of the opinion that the Iraqis should govern themselves. If they are not allowed to govern themselves, believe me, we are going in a vicious circle. The violence and the killing will not stop.

I think [coalition forces] should leave the police to work alone, and all the foreign forces should pull out far away from the populated areas. … Even the police force, if they are trying to maintain stability in Baghdad, for example, with the Americans beside them, then the people will hate them and the Iraqis will never work well. … We have to be intelligent enough. Train the police, give them the mission, put them there and tell them, “Work independently, we are going to leave this area.” …

Q: Surely, President Bush is very anxious to hand over to the Iraqis himself.

A: I know. He wants to hand over on June 30. I told him, “I am ready to train you some police, more police, enough police before that date to work in Baghdad and some big cities.”

Q: Should he stick with his commitment to hand over on June 30?

A: He said that. If we can prepare all these forces, I think it could happen.

Q: Some Iraqis seem not to be getting the message from President Bush that he wants to hand the country back to them. Can prominent regional leaders like you help deliver that message by speaking out?

A: I said that publicly on the television. Because of the terrible situation in which people there are living, they want to see something physically on the ground. This is the only thing to convince the people that there is hope for peace.

When both [the Israeli and Palestinian] prime ministers sit at the table and the people on both sides see them sitting and negotiating, it’s a good signal for both sides. Because Israelis are losing lives — civilians, innocent people. The same thing, too, with the Palestinians.

Q: Is the world, and specifically the Middle East, better off without Saddam Hussein?

A: Better off? Now you’re asking me a difficult question. (laughter)

This question [will] make me fail in the exam. (laughter)

Of course, such an element is not acceptable in the Arab world. But to make the Arab world safe, we have to find a way to stop the violence and the killing. …

The people are suffering, in Iraq and in Palestine. There is no income for them. They are making demonstrations in Iraq, they are jobless, they can hardly find their food. And it is the same thing in Palestine. They want to live, want to eat, want to work, they want a family. …

If there is no way to have income, tell me: What you can do? Commit suicide? If I feel desperate, I’m going to commit suicide and kill 10 more. This is the suicide bombers. There is no other reason.

Q: The Iraq war did not destabilize governments in the region as some had feared. But as the violence continues, are you worried about the impact on your country?

A: Look, because of the violence going on in Iraq and Palestine, the sentiment of the people, there is no hope for stability. The people are very furious.

You see demonstrations every now and then in most of the Arab countries because of the present situation.

Q: The Arab League meeting in Tunisia that was postponed last month was to have provided a response to President Bush’s Greater Middle East Initiative to encourage more democracy in the region.

A: President Bush’s initiative was not mentioned in Tunis. We heard about it. But we in Egypt made an initiative and put it before the Arab League. Other countries made initiatives of their own.

Egypt had started its reform some time before President Bush made his initiative. We started maybe seven or eight years ago, liberalizing the economy. We have an independent judicial system, we have a free press, we have free expression. We have been much more active … on women’s rights than any other country [in the Arab League]. We have a council on that. We have a multiparty system. Maybe [other Arab League members] are not so strong, but we have to accept them.

Q: Can the Middle East have the same kind of democracy as America?

A: It will be different in every culture, but the basis of democracy should be adopted. We cannot take the American example, which is not like the British example, is not like the French example, is not like the German example or the Italian model of democracy.

But the basis of democracy should be adopted: free press, independent judiciary system, parliament, multiparty system.

Q: You mentioned an offer to train police for Iraq. Did you make this offer to President Bush [on Monday]?

A: Yes.

Q: And what was his response?

A: He accepted that. We have May, June. We are ready to train the maximum number of policemen in our country in a very short period of time.

Q: How many could you train by June 30?

A: As many as they can bring.

Q: So do you expect that this will go forward?

A: We hope.

Q: Will you also send trainers to Iraq?

A: We will start training them there. When they take over and the situation is stable, we can send many more trainers.

Q: What else did you tell President Bush that he needs to do in Iraq?

A: I told him we have to hand the authority to the Iraqis. How? You have to think it over.

One of the points, I said: There should be a police, well-trained, who will take over, any town or any place, and the foreign forces should pull out and stay far away, to give the impression to the people that they are being controlled by themselves, by their police.

But if there are foreign forces there, they will shoot — the Iraqis and the foreign forces.

Of course, I told him that the United Nations should participate, on a political and humanitarian mission.

Q: Do you see any other countries in the region participating in this training of police?

A: I think maybe so. …

Q: U.S. military commanders in Baghdad said they are going to put some of the former Ba’athist military commanders back to work. Is this a wise move?

A: The armed forces was the only organization, the only institution that was highly respected in Iraq [before the war], and they would listen to them.

They could give order to the government, they could give order to the police. But for one reason or another that was not discussed.

Q: Was it a mistake to remove all the Ba’athist officers?

A: I cannot say it was a mistake. I did not know the circumstances at that time. But I think it would have been much more practical to keep them.

Q: You said last year —

A: I don’t remember what I said last year. (laughter)

Q: You said before the war, “If there is one [Osama] bin Laden now, there will be 100 bin Ladens after that [war] takes place.”

A: Look, I don’t want to interfere. … I am afraid because of the tension and the fighting and the killing that it may lead to an increase of terrorism everywhere in the world. This is the problem.

Q: And what did you tell President Bush needs to be done to quiet that?

A: To quiet that, we have to sort out the problems on both sides. It is the only way. Leaving things as they are will lead to much more terror, not only in the region, it will spread everywhere in the world. Believe me.

When I say this, some of you say, “Oh, you are frightening us.”

Q: So what is the solution?

A: The only way is to solve the problems with Iraq and with the Palestinians — two major problems, connected with each other — whether we like it or not. …

Q: The road map began a year ago, but almost nothing has changed. Can the road map still be saved?

A: That is a must. There is no other proposal. We have to stick to it. Because if we say the road map will not work, you are not giving any kind of an offer to the Palestinians.

So let us work on the road map. Let the withdrawal [from Gaza] be connected to the road map. Let us look at the borders … look at how to return the refugees. That should be negotiated and accepted by both sides.

Q: After the Arab League canceled its meeting, you said you would go to the moon to meet. Can the Arab League meet here on Earth? Maybe in Egypt?

A: I don’t care about the meeting being in Egypt. I just said that as a solution to the setback that took place.

I don’t mean we should have it in Egypt, or for me to be the chairman. I don’t care about that.

I care about peace and stability, for the failed resolution to come out from the summit. I think it is going to convene during May, maybe the second half of May. …

Q: When the Arab League does meet, what do you hope will be accomplished there?

A: Something should come out about the present situation in Iraq and Palestine.

There should be a resolution about reform. And as [I] said, that should be independent for each country — we are not all the same.

Reform in Djibouti is not like the reform in Morocco, is not like the reform in Saudi Arabia, is not like the reform in Jordan, is not like that of Syria.

Each country has its own characteristics, its own [ethnic] composition. … So any reform should take that into account. …

Q: You are recognized as a warrior against terror. Prime Minister Sharon probably also considers himself a warrior against terrorism. Do you think you and Mr. Sharon would ever agree what a terrorist is?

A: Don’t open this issue, please, some people may get offended by my ideas. … The problem was the definition of terrorism. There was a big problem in the United States how to define terrorism.

Q: Is it terrorism when a restaurant in Tel Aviv is blown up?

A: I don’t want to answer this question.

Q: But for President Bush, terrorism is black and white. There are terrorists, and there are those who fight terror. You stand on that side. Is Sharon on that side? Is Arafat?

A: My dear friend, go and ask Sharon. Don’t ask me. (laughter) Ask me what I said today — don’t quote me what I said one year ago, yesterday. (laughter)

Q: Is there anything more that you want to tell our readers in Washington?

A: Look, Egypt really is a strategic ally of the United States. We were fighting terror even before 9/11. We started reform and democracy even before the [Bush] initiative.

And I could tell you, the United States helped us when we started the reform five or six or eight years ago, in the economy, the social, the civil society, in everything. We had support from the United States at that time.

So this is not something new for us to make reform. Reform is an ongoing process that should never stop. … [President Bush] is helping us in reform.

Q: Egypt receives substantial economic and military assistance from the United States. How are you using that money?

A: Look, we are not using the money on our own. All the economic money, about $500 million, is used in programs controlled jointly by the U.S. [Agency for International Development] and the Egyptian government. We are being supervised by the Americans. We don’t spend the money on our own.

The American AID knows where each dollar is going. The impression that we are spending the money here and there is wrong. You are mistaken if you think that. …

When I took over after [President Anwar] Sadat, there was no infrastructure: no telephones, no sewage, no electricity. The aid has gone to build a telephone system, a much more modern one, to help build a sewage system, to education, health care. The aid has been used for the welfare of the people and for the civil society.

Q: And is the military aid being used to fight terrorism?

A: The military aid is being used for stability. Fighting terrorism is not the job of the armed forces. The job of the armed forces is merely to secure our borders.

Q: Your neighbor, Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, recently gave up his proscribed weapons programs. What made him change? …

A: Reform (laughter). It is the new reform, what can I tell you? I kept persuading him to drop all these things seven years ago. It took much time until he saw the benefit. …

Q: Why did you pull out of the 25-year anniversary celebrating Egypt’s peace treaty with Israel?

A: Why I didn’t send a representative to Israel?

They killed [Sheik] Ahmed Yassin [on March 22 with missiles fired from helicopters as he was leaving a mosque in Gaza].

How can I have sent them? Do you want me to commit suicide? There were demonstrations everywhere. Let us be logical. If I had done that, it would have created much more escalation and more terror against us. …

I would like to avoid any kind of tension. I planned to send the people [to the Arab League summit] and the parliament accepted the plan, when Yassin was killed. It was one of their mistakes. …

Q: Was the assassination of Yassin a major setback for the road map?

A: We have to carry on with the road map. We have to stop this assassination and killing, because the Arab side will do the same thing.

Kill, [and] they are going to kill. Revenge. Vicious circle. I told that to Mr. Sharon. This will be an endless violence.